TRANSCRIPTS OF OUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE JOINT OIREACHTAS SUB COMMITTEE
ON THE BARRON REPORT INTO THE DUBLIN & MONAGHAN BOMBINGS

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Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights
Sub-Committee on the Barron Report

Dé Máirt, 25 Eanáir 2005 - Tuesday, 25 January 2005

Public Hearing on the Barron Report


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Deputy Costello: Was there a feeling that you had been forgotten during all those years?

Mr. P. Bradshaw: We were forgotten, completely forgotten. The Governments of the day did not want to know us or anything about us because there must have been something they wanted to hide and that is why nobody ever bothered with us or anybody else either.

Deputy Costello: What is your view of whether or not there was collusion or involvement?

Mr. P. Bradshaw: I reckon there was collusion somewhere along the line and that is why they did not want anybody to do anything about it or us to do anything about it.

Deputy Costello: Do you think it was collusion by the State as well as by the British?

Mr. P. Bradshaw: I would think so, yes.

Ms Cummins: I was brought up to believe it was and obviously is such a political incident, the fact that no co-operation has been forthcoming. That is why I was told the chances of getting anything done is so difficult until people on both sides of the water put up their hands and account for themselves. It is all inside. It is one of these incidents that until an answer is given, it will continue to raise its head. For years every so often it will continue. With the Barron report and this hearing today, the political awareness is now there. People are becoming much more involved in it and they realise that after 30 years there should be closure on it. Whatever happened at the time, surely after 30 years they can start to admit what happened on both sides and maybe put a bit of closure on it and give the people peace at last.

Deputy Costello: I have one final question. Ms Lynn Cummins referred to a wish for closure and answers.

Ms Cummins: I really do.

Deputy Costello: Would anybody care to say what they would like the committee to do and how it might be of assistance in this matter?

Ms Cummins: If the Government can gather enough momentum to compel the English Government to give answers. I am not saying whether they are or are not involved. If they are not involved some questions could be very easily answered. If they are saying it could have been intelligence or SAS or whoever came in, they will have those records on file. One letter and one sighting of the movements of their people at the time will answer the question. They were either involved or not involved and then we can go in a different direction maybe and find out. They have the records.

Deputy Ó Feargháil: I wish to join with my colleagues in extending a warm welcome and my sincere personal sympathy to all the bereaved family members and the victims who are with us. I hope the process will help move their suffering on to some sort of resolution and conclusion. One would want to be made of stone not to be moved by the submissions we have heard today.

With regard to George Bradshaw, how long was he working with CIE, how did he come to have that job and how was it he came to change the shift on that day?

Ms Cummins: He was working in the creamery and then he got a job in CIE and Mammy and Daddy moved up to Dublin. They bought their house in Offington and Rory, my younger brother, was born then when they moved to Dublin. He was a year and ten months in Dublin. He was doing a favour for a friend.

Ms Bradshaw-Cooke: I think it is called, in CIE terms, being on stand-by. If someone does not come on duty to drive a bus, another is paid to come on stand-by. He might have to go home if the man he is standing in for turns up. Naturally anyone wishing to better themselves or have a better lifestyle would go on stand-by and equally do their own job when the time came. George happened to be only in Dublin a year and ten months, delighted with life and delighted with the extras and delighted with things the way they were going. Kathleen and himself got on famously. Kathleen was an only child and we were a family of 13. She was going up the stairs one day and she put her hand here and she said, “Oh, I am so happy”. It was shortly afterwards that her happiness was gone forever and definitely gone forever because she loved him and he loved her. One would have to be with the family, the 13, to know the ins and outs of where they go and what are they doing and Kathleen was involved then. She had 13 all of a sudden. Where are they going and what are they doing went on still.

One day we sat in the public Gallery in the Dáil and we were delighted questions were being asked of the Taoiseach. I cannot remember who asked the questions about the 1972 bombings. This is my first opportunity to say this. I was so annoyed and have been annoyed ever since. The Taoiseach said, “That’s a long time ago; I’m sure the papers are shredded.” The few of us who had come just stood up and went out. We were all very hurt. Has he no feelings? It is hard to believe he could just say that.

Paddy Duffy just said that he had all the newspaper clippings since 1972. We have all the newspapers since 1972 - every single one of them kept. That was what we did. That was the only connection we had with what went on: anything we read in the newspapers. We clutched on to these newspapers to see what they said and what they did not say. That Bill was being brought in, and all that was going on. At the time the newspapers were full of reports of the SAS. To us, being down the country, the SAS meant nothing because we did not care what they did anywhere else. However, it brought home to us what goes on. Do people high up really care?

Deputy Ó Feargháil: I believe Ms Rose Bradshaw-Brett said her brother was not really interested in politics. However, 1972 was a period of great unrest to put it mildly. Would George have had any sense of unease or fear about working in Dublin city centre at that time?

Ms Cummins: One night recently I was with one of my aunts preparing for this hearing. Apparently when Daddy was down in November he said to her, “Those bombs, if they come down South, I’m leaving; I’m coming home.” He was very much like that. Definitely he would not have stayed. He definitely said in November, “if those bombs come down South, I’m going home.”

Deputy Ó Feargháil: Ms Cummins definitely gives the sense of having been totally abandoned by the State. What sort of communication took place between the family and the Garda in the aftermath of the murder? I could understand how a communications breakdown might have occurred between Dublin and Fethard. Does Ms Cummins know whether ongoing communications on the investigations took place with her mother?

Ms Cummins: No way - there was no communication. As far as I know even some of the inquests took place really shortly afterwards. Mammy was not able to go and Nanny went at the time. I do not know who else might have gone. However, there was no follow up. They were left on their own to get on with things.

Ms Bradshaw-Cooke: They were certainly left on their own, because the inquest, as Ms Cummins has just mentioned, was opened and adjourned. Some 32 years afterwards it seems the inquest will be opened again in February. However, in all those years they definitely did not want to know about it.

Deputy Ó Feargháil: Mr. Justice Barron said that one of the striking features of the Garda investigation into the events of 1 December 1972 was the extent to which the Garda team was facilitated by its RUC counterparts. Were the witnesses aware of that co-operation at the time? What was their view at the time and what is their view now?

Ms Cummins: We were not aware at the time. In hindsight now I feel it was very easy for all parties involved North and South to co-operate with each other because they had nothing to hide. The RUC could quite easily come forward, hand on heart because it possibly had nothing to hide.

Chairman: I thank the witnesses for attending and sharing their feelings, grief and distress. I hope it will help in some way to come to a resolution of the whole matter. We are very grateful. This evidence is very helpful to us.

Mr. Tommy Douglas was killed in a bombing at Sackville Place on 20 January 1973. I welcome Ms Maureen Douglas, a sister of Tommy, and Mr. Andrew Douglas and Mr. Martin Douglas, brothers of Tommy. I know they have travelled and gone to considerable trouble to get here, which we appreciate very much and I thank them. I will ask the witnesses to contribute and make a statement in whatever way they wish. Deputy Murphy and Senator Jim Walsh will share a dialogue with the witnesses after that, if that is acceptable. I ask Ms Maureen Douglas to commence.

Ms Maureen Douglas: My name is Maureen Noble. I am the sister of Tommy Douglas who was killed in Sackville Place. I would like to read out what I have to say if members of the committee do not mind.

Chairman: Please do.

Ms Douglas: Tom was a decent kind thoughtful caring and fun-loving boy, who would do anything for anyone. He was well respected by everyone who knew him. He was enjoying living and working in Dublin and most of all he loved the people. I recently spoke to Tom’s bus driver who was on duty on that fateful day and he described Tom as one of the nicest boys he had every worked with. That was Martin Lahey, who came from Ballinasloe. Martin was one of the last people to see Tom alive apart from the priest who gave him the last rites.

Tom had strong religious beliefs and he got engaged at the crib on the altar of his local church at Christmas in 1972. He made a last-minute decision to come home for that new year, 1973, for which the family and I are thankful. I remember him talking about the great plans he was making for the future. Little did we know at the time that 20 days later he would be dead. While he was making his plans, there were evil people out there preparing to destroy him.

Saturday, 20 January 1973 started off to be a typical winter’s day. Little did I know that bad news was heading my way. In the early evening there was a knock on my door. There stood two of my brothers, Martin and Andy. I remember Martin saying, “There is no easy way to say this, Maureen, but we have had some bad news.” Then he told me that Tom had been killed in a bomb explosion. I was numb, in shock and in a state of disbelief. The impact Tom’s horrific death had on us as a family was enormous and absolutely devastating. In fact I was not affected until I saw him face to face in his coffin. A bit like St. Thomas, I needed to see to believe. It turned out to be the saddest day of my life and changed it forever. It has been a living nightmare ever since, not knowing who did it and why. The waiting and hearing nothing from any of the authorities did not help our heartache.

Now 32 years on we are no further forward. We still have no answers to so many questions. If it was not for our legal team and the Justice for the Forgotten group, we would not have any support at all. I do not like using the word “murder” - I do not like using it at all. Let us face it, nobody plants a bomb accidentally.

As a family, we have to fight on to get to the truth and justice. That is the least we can do for Tom. We owe it to him and our absent family members who have gone before us. We loved and lost a brother to be proud of, whom we loved dearly and sorely miss.

Chairman: Thank you very much, Maureen. It is very difficult.

Mr. Andrew Douglas: Thomas was my brother. He was a year older than me. We were pretty close, not just in years. We were together quite a lot. We had a lot in common such as the things we did. I was delighted to see him coming home for the new year in 1972-73. At that time he did make it clear that if there were further bombings, he was going to return home. Unfortunately, it just so happened that the bombing was the one in which he was caught.

Thomas loved Ireland, as do the rest of the family. He loved it that much because his mother came from Achill, County Mayo. For his last act that particular day he was going to buy a newspaper for his mother - the Mayo News. When he was walking up Sackville Place, the explosion took place. It was horrendous in the house when we got the news. I remember it so clearly, even though it actually happened 32 years ago yesterday.

I have other problems with the Barron report. I do not think it is worth the paper on which it is written. I think it is a diabolical publication. For 32 years this country and the British Government - the brains between the two - were supposed to be tracking things that go on. As far as the report is concerned, there are ten lines relating to my brother and two massive mistakes. For a start they do not even get his age right. The other is that they had him coming out of a bookies when in actual fact he was going to Eason’s to get a newspaper. If that is the result of the report - a cut and paste job from a newspaper article in 1973 - somebody has been wasting our time and getting money under false pretences.

Other stuff in the report is nonsense. There are more questions than answers. If someone is asked a question and they do not answer it, why is there not a follow-up question? That is what has happened in the report. For example - on page 74 of the report - there was a test tube found in the wreckage of the car which was taken away for analysis. There is no result of the analysis. Why are there no follow-up questions? Is there no audit trail anywhere in this country that can trace things back to where they are supposed to be? Who was the last person to have such a thing in their hands? Who was the last person to have a file in their hands? Is it just forgotten? Do they just file things and throw them away in a cupboard? That is the result of the report.

The things coming out in the report are unbelievable. Fingerprints were taken at the scene. Page 75 of the report refers to “various fingerprints” but does not say whose. It just says they related to one person. I do not believe that either.

You have got people from forensics; you have got ballistics experts. A ballistics expert was supposedly standing at the door of Eason’s shop when he heard the explosion. He said he immediately ran over to Sackville Place. By that time, people who were there had actually moved the car bomb. I do not mean to say he should be an Olympic runner but for goodness’ sake it is about 80 yards away. How could someone have moved - physically - a car by the time the ballistics expert got there? He got there but he says he does not know where the car was supposed to have been. I mean that is just rubbish.

Chairman: The committee would like to receive a list of the questions it can put to the author of the report.

Mr. A. Douglas: Yes, certainly. I can give you the page numbers as well.

Chairman: I would not like to continue in any way that might impugn the author of the report in any way, without those questions being actually put to him.

Mr. A. Douglas: Yes.

Chairman: We would appreciate it if we could organise the handing over of those questions. We will put them to the author of the report.

Mr. A. Douglas: No problem. I will give you them.

As I have said, this has been the result after 32 years; this is the stuff with which we are served up. I do not believe there has been a thorough enough job in both nations. I think there have been failings in the Garda’s investigations. I do not believe there has been another murder committed in this country or Britain where the investigation has been wound up after eight weeks. That is in the report as well. Basically, it was confirmed on 13 March that it was concluded.

Chairman: We will certainly be asking questions about that.

Mr. A. Douglas: That was a murder. After eight weeks time was up. I think the whole thing is just incredible. I am afraid I cannot go on much longer on that particular line.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Douglas. I call Mr. Martin Douglas who is another brother of Tommy. He is very welcome.

Mr. Martin Douglas: If I appear to be quite tired here today, it is because I have travelled through the night to get here on time. I will try my best to soldier on.

I am Tommy’s eldest brother. I was 26 when he died at age 21. He died in the same street as his two colleagues who were killed seven weeks earlier, which in itself is quite a strange fact. There are not many towns and cities in Ireland, certainly Southern Ireland, and in Britain where murders happen in such close proximity and one comes up with the same result - nothing.

I remember Tom as very sensitive and well balanced. He had an old head on his shoulders. He was a very caring lad, a lad who was passionate about justice and peace. Many of his qualities we took for granted but it was later after his death that we heard from people we had never met before about his many acts of kindness. He was a thoroughly decent person for every minute that I knew him.

The final six months of his life were probably the happiest he ever had. He had just qualified as an electrician after a long apprenticeship, something about which he was really proud. However, as it was small, the firm could not keep him on and he looked for work locally. There was nothing doing in central Scotland at the time. He had a great love for Ireland and the Irish people.

We had had many holidays passing through Dublin where we had some friends and family but mainly in County Mayo and on Achill Island. He thought he would give Dublin a try. We were all a little worried because it was quite far for Tommy to go. We did not want him to go anywhere but he was brave and had great plans. He saw a great opportunity there - “I am going to be in a place that I know I am going to love and I know the loss for you will be easier because you love Ireland as well.” He went off with our best wishes. That was the first big positive for him. He became an electrician and was well proud of it. Then he went to Dublin, another great positive. That was in August 1972. On 23 October 1972 he celebrated his 21st birthday, a milestone we all celebrate. That was celebrated in Dublin. He and Moira, his girlfriend, were engaged in Dublin, as Maureen said, at the crib of a local church. He was engaged at Christmas 1972. All these milestones in a short period of time. My life was not like that but he got them all in.

He made a surprise visit to see us at new year where he played with his only two nieces, my two girls, one aged 19 months, his godchild, and one three months. We had a great visit, speaking about his plans, with Moira showing off her engagement ring. Everything was wonderful. I almost envied his success and his plans. I thought “wow”. The vitality and the success was just oozing out of him. Then, of course, a few weeks later he had gone. So, it was quite a six months he had, but he definitely went out on a high.

I have to agree with my siblings, my brother and sister, we have been devastated since then and it is not 30 years ago. We carry it inside. We are here today, we carry it. I think all our personalities changed in quite significant ways. So it has had that effect on us. We have carried it. It welled up even more five and four years ago respectively when my father and mother died because my mother just never got over Tom’s death. It was almost a mortal wound to her. She was never the same again. We could not really talk about Tom but we would always go out and visit his grave every week and that is where she felt she was making a contact. She did that during 11 years, latterly when she was suffering from kidney dialysis and she could barely walk. That was the impact on our lives. It was significant then and it is significant now.

Where are we now? We are in a situation where as individuals we were getting nowhere for over 20 years, so we are grateful to Justice for the Forgotten and the legal team for bringing us to where we are today. We are grateful to the Government which has got involved as witnessed by the fact that we are here before this sub-committee today. It is a marvellous step forward and I am personally very grateful for that. I know that Mr. Justice Barron’s hands were tied somewhat in what he did, but the report as far as our family is concerned is completely inconclusive and tells us absolutely nothing. It was devastating, as Andy said, to read the two glaring errors. It kind of puts a damper on the whole report for us, and you can understand that. We are grateful for all these things, but I feel we come so far - we get co-operation from the Irish Government - but then files are withheld still and files have gone missing, so we go so far and stop.

The British Government helped with the 1974 inquiry so we are optimistic they will co-operate with this one, but stop. It seems to be the pattern. We seem to get a little bit of something and then suddenly it all goes away. I was a civil servant in the British Government for 28 years, and files do not just go missing. Files are withheld for very good reason, but the good reason is rarely good for truth and good for democracy in my experience. So these things just do not happen, but if we parcel it all together there may be some consistency in the way things are wobbly, things are not quite the way they ought to be, things are very uneasy.

On Saturday I got a reply from my local MP in Preston in Lancashire. He is vice-chairman of the Conservative Party, and he is my MP, Nigel Evans. After the publication of the interim report, I just had to write to the MP for him to contact Tony Blair and ask why there was no co-operation with this inquiry. The expected bland reply came back signed “Tony”, but we may be interested in the final sentence - the letter is dated 10 January - which says “It is entirely understandable that those who have suffered the loss of loved ones still yearn to find out what happened and the British Government is committed to doing what it can to give those people the best chance of achieving that.” I have failed to get the question answered “What exactly are you doing?” Perhaps the Irish Government could ask Tony that question. With a bit more weight behind the question maybe you will get the specific answer that I was desperately trying to get.

Chairman: Perhaps you will give us copies of that correspondence, Mr. Douglas.

Mr. M. Douglas: With pleasure, I will. That is all I have to say. Thank you very much.

Chairman: Thank you very much. Before Deputy Murphy and Senator Walsh speak, I wish to point out that we are certainly happy to consider any questions you have regarding the report and to bring them to the attention of Mr. Justice Barron to enable him to deal with them. I am sure there is no wish to impugn the integrity of Mr. Justice Barron in any way. That is accepted and agreed.

Deputy Murphy: I welcome Ms Maureen Douglas, Mr. Andrew Douglas and Mr. Martin Douglas and the other victims and relatives of victims. I want to be associated with the expressions of sympathy expressed by the Chairman and other members of the committee. It is very obvious that after 32 years a significant sense of hurt and loss continues to be experienced by everyone involved.

I have been amazed by the fact that most of the families received no help or back-up from any association or organisation in the early days and years. It took nearly 20 years before an organisation was formed to give them some consolation and support. Has that been the experience of the Douglas family?

Mr. M. Douglas: Yes. A small amount of money was paid to cover Tommy’s burial and that was it. We heard nothing else thereafter from either the Irish Government or the British Government. The British Government did not get involved at all despite the fact that our brother was a British citizen. That did surprise and shock us. It just seemed that his death did not really matter as far as the authorities were concerned.

Ms M. Douglas: Yes, and it was so upsetting. What really happened was the weeks turned into months and the months turned into years. We kept waiting and waiting on word from Ireland. I gave up asking my mum “Have you ever had any word from anybody, mam?” I gave up because I could just see how upset she was. Although we were all upset, it was really getting to her and we just gave up, because there was nothing anyway. It was not for her to make the first contact.

Mr. A. Douglas: Could I just add that there was no medical assistance whatsoever. As far as my mother was concerned, she was not even given a sedative. There was no counselling and no doctor came to see her. There was nothing whatsoever, just this total sense of loss and we were left to get on with it.

Deputy Murphy: It is difficult to comprehend the lack of caring. One would think in this day and age that better services would have been available. The failure of both Governments is completely inexcusable in the Douglas case.

Listening to people speak this morning, the general consensus appears to be that the report has raised more questions than answers, and from that point of view the families find it extremely unsatisfactory. The key issue that has been identified as having the potential to advance the report is full disclosure by the British Government and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform of documents and files relating to the inquiry. If files are missing, we will need an adequate explanation and ultimate accountability.

Chairman: Will the Deputy stick to questions?

Deputy Murphy: It is possible that this committee can put some pressure on the appropriate individuals by insisting that all information available in this jurisdiction be made available to the committee. It appears highly unlikely from contacts made with the British Government that we can expect further co-operation. If that is the case, it is unlikely that we will reach a satisfactory conclusion on the relevant issues. In that event, do you have any suggestions as to the recommendations this committee could make to Government to bring a satisfactory outcome to the process?

Mr. M. Douglas: This is very difficult for us because I am certainly not too familiar with the machinations of the legal system and so on. I think our family always felt that some kind of a public inquiry at least may have had much more strength behind it and perhaps more authority to call people forward and demand files. I am not entirely sure how the public inquiry system would work but I understand it would be a much more open and more powerful approach where perhaps files that we know exist and are not being revealed could perhaps be teased out or demanded. I do not know, but it was something that we wanted. We felt it would be a much wider inquiry, a much deeper inquiry, a much more conclusive inquiry if it were an open inquiry, but I may be wrong in this. That is something I would welcome if that was the only way to move forward because we really have to move forward. To stand still is just to be surrounded with thousands of questions and nobody getting anywhere so something much more conclusive has to happen. Without any legal authority behind it we will still have problems.

Ms M. Douglas: It was not just the missing files. Clothes belonging to Tom conveniently disappeared as well. It was the gardaí at Store Street who were in charge. They were dealing with everything at the time Tom was killed. It is like evidence has been tampered with. His clothes that he had have been removed. Nobody knew were they went. They conveniently disappeared with files. The thing is nowadays there is forensics, DNA testing and different things. Even though it is 32 years on, evidence should never have been tampered with. There could have been something in his clothes that could have pinpointed somebody and they have disappeared. Anything belonging to him just seemed to conveniently disappear. We are hitting against a brick wall all the time, just struggling and struggling. That is what it has been like.



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