Senator J. Walsh: I join my colleagues in expressing my sympathy to you on your loss. While we are all conscious that in the order of 3,000 people died over the 30 years of the Troubles, your testimony and that of the other families this morning puts a human face on all that which is very important, particularly in relation to the senseless killing of many innocent people. It is said that time is a healer, but I sense from you and all the families that that is not the case. To what would you attribute the fact that time has not in some way eased the sense of loss and pain?

Mr. A. Douglas: The problem is there has never been closure. It is as if everyone else is just sort of meandering along and going through routines. There is no closure in this whole episode. I think that is what it is. It is just the sheer sense of injustice that is happening. We feel we cannot put anything behind us. We keep looking forward. Is there a reason? Are there answers? Who does have answers? It is not helpful when you can see that the questions are not being pursued in other areas. If someone some day puts their hands up, that would certainly help to ease the burden that we have been carrying for 32 years.

Ms M. Douglas: It was 25 years before I set foot on Irish soil again because I was living in fear, frightened to come back. I had many a happy childhood day in Ireland but for 25 years I would not come anywhere near it because I was living in fear for all those years after losing Tom like that. I was just frightened to come. That was the mark it left on us. It was only with the first chance to have peace that I thought I would try.

Mr. M. Douglas: In my view it is a tragedy if a young person is killed, say, by being knocked over by a bus. That is a tragedy and you can carry that loss all your life as well, there is no doubt about that, but if you still suspect that people know something about why Tommy died and they are not telling us, then it does not leave you at peace. You know there is something there, some information, somebody is hiding something or somebody is not being open about it and you really feel duty-bound to do something about that. You cannot just say that does not matter. It matters that somebody does not tell you so that really imposes on you a duty to find out what on earth it is all about.

We cannot rest until we have more information or find out why people are not coming into the open and revealing what happened to us. We could probably take it if they told us. We could probably accept it. We could probably understand how things were political at the time, but people still appear to be hiding and that cannot allow us to rest in peace. It just inspires us to go on and on. Somebody on the other side of the fence really has to ask themselves the question how can we make this family just settle down and accept it, and also with the other families involved here today.

Senator J. Walsh: That is something on which I think all the families, both this morning and at the previous hearings on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974, would empathise with you. In that regard I was interested in the letter you received from the British Prime Minister through your MP. I remind you of remarks on pages 20 and 21 of Mr. Justice Barron’s report which states that the inquiry wrote to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on 17 February 2003. It notes on page 21 that, as of 2 February 2004, 12 months later, “the Northern Ireland Office had not yet begun the process of searching for relevant documentation.” It continues: “The Inquiry is surprised and disappointed at this lack of co-operation on the part of the British authorities.” It goes on to state that information which the PSNI had and which it stated it would channel through the Northern Ireland Office was not made available. The committee has found that straddling both jurisdictions has been a significant problem for us.

Tom was a British citizen. On the previous occasion there were discussions about the possibility of pursuing a case through the European Court of Human Rights. If all fails, including pressure from the Irish Government, would you, perhaps through the Justice for the Forgotten group, consider pursuing that avenue.

Mr. M. Douglas: I would welcome that if that is the avenue we have to take.

Chairman: Due to time constraints, I must move on to Pat Morrissey and Carol Garvey. I apologise to the witnesses.

Ms M. Douglas: Thank you very much.

Chairman: I thank you very much. I know you travelled and that Martin, in particular, travelled through the night. I do not know about Andrew and Maureen.

Mr. A. Douglas: I arrived last night.

Chairman: Thank you very much. Maureen, you came over from Scotland.

Ms M. Douglas: Yes. Thank you for giving us the time of day to listen. That is important to us.

Chairman: We will certainly do that and on the questions raised, we will discuss them later with Cormac Ó Dúlacháin and we will meet Mícheál O’Connor. Thank you very much. I hope the meeting has been helpful. Witnesses should remain where they are.

We will now hear from Ms Carol Garvey, who is the wife of Mr. John Garvey who was a survivor of the bomb on 20 January 1973, and to Mr. Pat Morrissey, who is a survivor of the bomb on 1 December 1972. Ms Garvey told me she is nervous. I thank her for coming along today. There is no need for her to be nervous. She has listened to all the people who want to hear her story and how she feels.

Ms Carol Garvey: I am here because John is not here because he thinks we will all still be talking in another 32 years. I felt so strongly about him and what happened to him that I came in his place. If it is okay, I will just read out a synopsis of his life since his accident.

Before John had his accident he ran six or seven miles every day, played football for Naas and generally was a very athletic person. All this came to an end on 20 January 1973. John’s life had irrevocably changed. The surgeon, Mr. Hederman, said that only that he was so fit, he would not have come through it at all. John and I have never been for a walk or a spin on a bike together. When we go away, I walk on beaches alone while John waits. He still misses the ordinary things in life we all take for granted.

When John had the accident he was in hospital for eight weeks. He had horrific injuries to his shoulder blade which required skin grafts and both legs and hands were injured as well. To this day he still has holes in his body from embedded shrapnel. In those days there was no such things as counselling. People were just left to get on with it. After trying to save his leg, the surgeon had to make a decision to amputate it as he was allergic to penicillin and things were not looking too good. After the amputation, he slowly began to pick up. He then returned home on crutches with no support from any of the services. Of course, he had the support of his family and I, being his friend at that time, used to call for him every day and take him for a walk on crutches with one leg for the best part of a year until he was fitted with an artificial leg.

That year was a tough one for him. His whole life had changed. His job was gone and he had no prospects. He could not see any future ahead of him. However, he is strong-willed and determined and, finally after three and a half years, he was offered a course in Ballyfermot from which he got a job in Kildare. He spent three years there before being made redundant. At that stage he was very depressed. He found it hard to get up every day. I had to collect his unemployment money for him as he was too ashamed to collect it himself. He was out of work for nine months and was very difficult to live with as he was so depressed.

John has never really spoken about his accident. He does not know how to express himself. He will not hear of counselling at this stage. He says it is too little, too late. He eventually applied to the Civil Service which was advertising positions and, thank God, he got a job where he has worked for the past 25 years. He has not had more than a month’s sick leave in all those years. That is the sort of person he is - good and conscientious.

Over the years he had to watch his stump as he gets blisters which hinder walking, especially in fine weather. His hand and arm pain him in the winter. He walks with a stick at all times. When he is in the garden he has a brush with him to make people think he is sweeping instead of it being a support for him. People ask him how he is and he tells everybody he is fine but he suffers inside. He has nightmares a few times a year from which I have to wake him as he becomes fearful of people chasing and killing him.

His father died last year and his mother is partially disabled and needs attention at night. His sister who lost her husband at 45 looks after her during the day. I used to help John but I fell last summer and broke my hip and arm which left John very stressed trying to look after us all. He lost a lot of weight. I thought he would have a nervous breakdown.

Things are settling down a bit now but John feels that things are getting harder with the passing years. He has lived for 32 years with one leg. None of us realises what that means. Even I who lived with him did not really understand until I broke my hip and could not walk for seven weeks. I thought it was a lifetime but John used to say it would pass. Unlike in his case, my limp went away. I really understand his disability now. John always feels anxious and frustrated and finds it hard to relax and stay quiet. I just want a little bit of John’s life to be recorded by this committee.

Chairman: I thank Ms Garvey very much. I am sure John is watching and is very proud of her. Mr. Pat Morrissey is a survivor of the bombs. I invite him to make a contribution.

Mr. Pat Morrissey: I will try to give an account of what took place on 1 December 1972. It was a day like all days and I was there. At about 8.30 p.m. I was in the CIE club in Earl Place. I had just sat down to have a meal. The people in there were requested to leave the building as there was a bomb scare in the area. I then proceeded to Earl Place from the club. I said “Hello” to a garda which took a few seconds. I then proceeded to the end of Earl Place and turned left into Sackville Place in the direction of Marlborough Street. I walked a few paces up the street and then the car bomb exploded. I was a distance of 30 ft. to 35 ft. away from the actual car bomb. The shock was really something devastating; it was like a KO punch. I was floored to the ground. I was dazed and shocked for some time. I then noticed I had a piece of metal shrapnel lodged in my left ribs which were bleeding. I also received minor cuts to my legs.

People were clearing immediately from the area and some people came and assisted me from there into O’Connell Street. They put me onto a privately hired bus which was going in the direction of the Mater Hospital. I was dropped at the Mater Hospital outside the casualty department. I struggled to make my way into the casualty department where I received medical attention. The metal shrapnel was removed from my left ribs. I was detained for a few hours and was later driven home in a car by a friend of mine. I should also mention that I was carrying a metal box at the time of the explosion which was later found with several holes in it from the blast of the bomb. I was out of work for a period of about two months.

Since that time I have suffered from claustrophobia. It affected the quality of my life over the last 32 years. On several occasions I had to get off crowded DART trains at peak hours. Believe it or not, and it might seem funny, but my wife would go on even though I had to get off the train. I just had to feel free. I was always very conscious of any further explosions in crowded areas. I was always on the lookout. More recently I have gone into lifts but to this day I cannot enter a lift on my own. Neither can I fly since the bomb blast. I also have a terrible intolerance to loud noise and suffer from severe tinnitus. I am deeply grateful to Justice for the Forgotten for providing a therapy facility during the last couple of years, which I attend. I have got great relief from the facilities there on relaxation. It has enabled me to relax a great deal and it has controlled some great deal of the claustrophobia.

It is now 32 years since the bomb blasts and I sincerely hope that it can be brought to a closure soon. Two men, of course, died that night and I feel very grateful to God that I survived. At the end of the day, it made me appreciate - with respect to the people here, the relatives of the deceased - that life is priceless and wonderful. I sincerely hope that they have a very quick closure soon and with their investigations. Thank you.

Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey. I appreciate your giving up your time and I regret very much the problems that have arisen for you as a result of the bomb. Deputy Costello and Senator Walsh will share time.

Deputy Costello: I thank Mr. Morrissey and Ms Garvey for their very moving accounts. Is there a common theme of neglect of services for the victims and families on the part of State agencies? Arising out of that, do the witnesses feel anything specific could be done at this point? Perhaps they have discussed it themselves and felt bad that it was not done.

Mr. Morrissey: Sorry, Joe, my hearing is not 100%.

Deputy Costello: My point is that there seems to be a common thread not just in the cases of Mr. Morrissey and Ms Garvey but also in other cases, that State services are neglecting those affected. Anything those affected have got has come from Justice for the Forgotten. Is there anything in particular the witnesses feel they should have got or that we can do to rectify the situation?

Mr. Morrissey: There could have been better facilities for the injured people that were in the bombs and more medical facilities available over the years.

Chairman: Is there anything that could be done now?

Mr. Morrissey: Justice for the Forgotten is doing a great job in providing these facilities. As far as I am concerned, I am quite satisfied.

Ms Garvey: I know my John needs to go for counselling but he will not talk about it. He just will not talk about it, he cannot. He just will not talk about it and that is it. I have tried to get him to come up to Dublin. Dublin is too far from Naas. I know what he needs and he knows probably what he needs too but he thinks if it is all left down there it is grand, but he does not want to pull it back out. He is not able to face that, I suppose. I do not know because, as I say, he does not really talk, but I think he could do with counselling.

Deputy Costello: He is getting on with life.

Ms Garvey: Yes. He is a great person. He is one of life’s unsung heroes, I always say. He is a marvellous person, wonderful.

Senator J. Walsh: I know Mr. Morrissey was out of work. How did the bombings affect his working life subsequently?

Mr. Morrissey: I managed to be able to work. I was employed as a bus conductor in Dublin city buses. All the time afterwards, certain areas you would go to, I would have to be conscious. For example, if I went into certain buildings, before I went into them I would have to know here in my head where the exits were. If I went on an escalator up to the top, say, of Eason’s, I would have to know where the escalators were. It did not really affect my working that much because I was well aware that there were exits on buses and all that. It was quite safe there, but over the years I was always conscious if I saw any cases left unattended or parcels left unattended, I was always conscious they could possibly be bombs.

Another thing is that for a couple of years after it, all the parked cars, I used to even get away from them as fast as possible.

Senator J. Walsh: There is a sense - I believe we felt it ourselves on the last occasion - that the State failed the victims and their families, even though, as Lynn has said, the bombings occurred in different times during which there were different attitudes. I detect from Ms Garvey a real sense of abandonment.

Ms Garvey: John was nearly sent home from the Mater Hospital on the bus, with one leg and two crutches. He would nearly have been sent home on the bus if his father had not come up to collect him and that was the end of that. As I said, I had a split duty. I had the middle of the day off and I used to have to go down that year after his accident and literally pull him out of the house because he did not want to go out to be seen with his trouser leg rolled up. He had to get strength in his good leg to be able to wear an artificial leg. I literally went in and pulled him out the door to get him out the road. That is the way it was. As another girl said, it was different times. Now, I think it has nearly gone the other way. Now counsellors are nearly at you if you trip over the path. It has gone too far the other way now.

Chairman: We have come to the end of this morning’s proceedings. I thank all the victims and the relatives of the victims who have attended today to give an account and help us in our consideration of the report. I hope the meeting will also be helpful to them. I particularly thank Justice for the Forgotten. The excellent work it has been doing on behalf of victims has already been mentioned. I notice members of the families of victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in the Visitors’Gallery. They are very welcome on this sad occasion.

All the contributions have helped to put in context some of the horrific events that occurred and the extent of the suffering of the past 32 years. If the contributors wish for any assistance, the staff will be more than happy to help in any way they possibly can.

The sub-committee adjourned at 12 p.m.
until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 January 2005.